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Naan Bread and SBS

Posted by Tickpol , on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:16 pm

My output tonight was darn thick so what did I do different?

 

I had kabobs for dinner.  I've had lamb before with no impact.  I've had rice before with no impact.  But this is the first time I've eaten naan bread since I got my ostomy.

 

Gotta be the naan.

 

Anybody want to do an independant study to prove or disprove my assumption?

 

Dave

Reply by Bill, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:35 am

Hello Dave.

My output has been changing regularly since my last operation. I have no idea why because I haven't changed my diet much at all. However, in my case, I suspect the new drugs regime may be to blame.

Best wishes

Bill

Reply by newyorktorque, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:42 am

bready stuff will thicken my output

Reply by Tickpol , on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 am

Agree that bread thicken but this was wonderfully better for those of us with short bowel.

 

I happen to really like naan and it would be just too cool if a daily dose would thicken and reduce output.

 

Probably too good to be true but I have to keep trying!

 

Dave

Reply by panther, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:44 am

First of all did your output being thick cause any problems?

Output can change by the hour from loose to thick for no reason even with foods you've eaten before and had no problems with, try it again on a few more ocassions to make sure it was that and not just an of day 

Reply by w30bob, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:53 am

I don't even know what the hell Naan bread is.........but if it thickens output I'll eat 4 loaves a day!!  If anyone finds ANYTHING that can significantly thicken output send that info my way.  I'm not talking about for folks with a full small bowel......that's easy.  I'm talking about something that will absorb the excess liquid of a short-gutted bowel.  Now let me go look up Naan bread and go find some!!

thanks,

bob

Reply by newyorktorque, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:52 pm
w30bob wrote:

I don't even know what the hell Naan bread is.........but if it thickens output I'll eat 4 loaves a day!!  If anyone finds ANYTHING that can significantly thicken output send that info my way.  I'm not talking about for folks with a full small bowel......that's easy.  I'm talking about something that will absorb the excess liquid of a short-gutted bowel.  Now let me go look up Naan bread and go find some!!

thanks,

bob


Hey Bob Naan is Indian bread.  Its like a flat bread or pita bread.  Its very good and excellent w/stews or gravy, ideal for dipping.  If you ever go to an Indian restaurant, a decent one will offer you different kinds like one with onions or even stuffed w/potato, they're quite tasty.

Reply by Tickpol , on Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:22 pm
panther wrote:

First of all did your output being thick cause any problems?

Output can change by the hour from loose to thick for no reason even with foods you've eaten before and had no problems with, try it again on a few more ocassions to make sure it was that and not just an of day 


No problems at all but as a high volume SBS I'm normally so fluid that my output comes in two flavors, liquid and foam.  Any thickening is an improvement..

 

Unless you find your magic formula for absorbing liquids SBS as a general rule only gets it's thickness from failing to chew.

My suspician is that naan, like all flatbreads,  is dense (not a lot of air pockets) so it won't foam as much as other breads.  In addition my guess is that it acts like a pressed sponge.  It starts our as a little brick and when it gets wet it expands with the fluid it absorbs. By getting bulkier it slows going through giving the liquid more time to be absorbed.  It also absorbs more liquid on its own so ultimately I didn't have to empty my pouch as often which was also pretty cool.

Anyway, doing another colonoscopy tomorrow to determine if we need to revise my stoma (got my vote) so I won't be getting any more naan until tomorrow night. 

 

Anybody got a good recipe for lamb kabobs? LOL

 

Dave

Reply by w30bob, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:54 pm

Hey Dave,

  Not to be a Nosy-Nelly, but I'm getting ready to put up a post on stoma revisions.........and I just read your last reply above saying you were getting one.  Can I ask why?  I met with an abdominal wall specialist surgeon not too long ago because folks thought I might be getting a hernia.  We checked it out and I was fine, but I asked him about revision to sort of straighten out my stoma...........and in a nutshell he told me not to mess with it unless absolutely necessary, as revisions are fraught with complications that are not always manageable.  I left it there because I was happy at that point not to have a hernia and find out it was simply a small infection that I knocked out with some anti-biotics.  But now I'm reading about lots of folks getting revisions and am thinking it might not be such a big deal.  I'd like to get mine "adjusted" so the full circumference of the stoma is above skin level, as right now one side of mine is at skin level and that's where it always leaks.  I could get a much better seal and maybe a few more days out of my barrier if my stoma was normal in how it exited my abdomen.  But I certainly don't want to make it worse.  So what's up with yours that's making you get a revision??

 

thanks,

bob

Reply by w30bob, on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:13 pm

Hi Dave,

  In regards to your liquid output and the Naan bread, I've got a few thoughts.  First, it should be easy to tell if it's actually the bread making the difference or not. So I'll standby until you can confirm.  If I do hit the supermarket I'll get some Naan.  In your explanation of why the Naan might be working I'm not fully following you.  For the bread to be acting like a sponge it would have to NOT be broken down by your stomach acids and the bile in your intestines.  I don't think it's coming out intact into your bag, so I'm having my doubts about the sponge theory.  The only way I could see it affecting your rate of liquid absorption would be by having it somehow balance what ever else is in your gut at the time in terms of the sodium-glucose ratio that allows your gut to pull in water.  I'll check the ingredients in Naan and see what's what. 

 In regards to reducing the liquidity of our output........the only thing that I find that makes the output thick is literally NOT TO DRINK anything while we eat, and as little afterward as you can stand.  Other than a few sips to get it down my throat, if I don't drink anything first thing in the morning with breakfast my output (about a half to 3/4 hour later) will be pretty solid.  And by solid I mean like a thick oatmeal, not solid like a normal person's stool.  Then lunchtime hits and if I drink ORS with lunch (or add a few salt packets to my 32 oz Diet Coke and don't chug it) I can keep my output under control until after work. Then I come home, open the fridge and see those beautiful bottles of ice water sitting there smiling at me........and I lose it!  And it stays lost for the rest of the night. 

 Now don't get me wrong......when I read in Carol's book where it said not to drink more than 4 ozs of liquid at a time, and only do that 20 minutes after eating..........I laughed my ass off.  I've always drank with my meals, not after, and doing what she said was IMPOSSIBLE for me.  So I suffered with lots of output and very frequent bag emptyings for the first 4 years of living with my ostomy.  When I'd complain to my Docs about the ridiculous amount of output they'd always ask me how much output I was having........and I'd always tell them the same answer......it depends on how much I drink, dumb-ass.  Long story short......you can train yourself slowly over time to drink less during the day.  It works.  It's not fun, but does get easier as you train your body.  Just sayin'. 

 What were we talking about...........oh yean Naan bread.  Ok........I'm on it!

regards,

bob

Reply by Tickpol , on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:53 am

Bob,

I'm with you, I've never absorbed water well even when I had my full bowel.  4 oz of water won't clear my throat when I'm eating but I do limit what I take in as much as I can when I eat.

Diet coke?  Don't you balloon afterward!?!

Even though I'm taking in a liter through my PICC every day I'm still thirsty all the time.  Having gotten close to shutting my kidneys down (prior to the PICC) I'm more inclined to put up with the frequent pouch empties than go thirsty but that's me.

I'm come to accept that this is about as good as my gut is going to function.  My goal now is to understand as much about my "new normal" as I can so when I need to I can control it short term so I'm not having to get up in special occassions (weddings, funerals, arrival of space aliens).

 

I'm just learning to play the hand I'm dealt,

 

Dave

Reply by newyorktorque, on Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:02 pm

Hey Dave how long have you had your ostomy?  My first 2 years I was sucking down liquid like theres no tomorrow.  Things are a little more under control now.  With an ileo I have liquid output all the time but things like bread can thicken my output as well as using omeprazole.

 

Reply by w30bob, on Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Hi Dave,

  For whatever reason.......I don't ever balloon.  Gas is just not an issue for me, and I eat a lot of crap.  Seems the part of my small intestine that I have left doesn't absorb fat or cholesterol, so I eat everything normal folks shouldn't, and do it every day.  I just had my lippids checked and my LDL and HDL are spot-on in the middle of the range.  My blood pressure is always perfect, as is my heart rate.  This must be the silver lining in my otherwise rain-infested cloud.  The guys at work just shake their heads..........I eat McDonalds burgers everyday (including a large fry) for lunch (and buy enough to eat thru the evening), I drink heavy whipping cream by the quart and have half a dozen bowls of Raisin Bran (with extra raisins) soaked in Half N Half each nite......usually before I eat a whole DiGiorno Deep Dish Pan Pizza.  And I wash that down with a couple large glasses of iced whole milk (because cream and half N half get expensive when you drink it by the gallon).  And I never get any gas.  Or gain any weight.  No wait, I take that back.  I have been gaining a little weight.......finally.  Which is why I wanted to write this reply. 

  You mentioned a few things I need to comment on.  First, it's thought our bowels adapt for the first year.  That's crap. They continue to adapt for as long as needed. Mine are still adapting and it's 5 years since my operation this past September.  The trick to adaptation is not to "help" your body except when absolutely necessary.  They don't tell you this stuff, because they really don't fully understand it........and neither do I, but your body will adapt faster if it has to, but if you help it constantly then it won't.........because it doesn't have to.  That's why I didn'd drink any ORS for the first couple years.  I didn't want my body to think if it didn't adapt to absorb what I was drinking it would be fine because I'd cave and drink the ORS.  And now I can drink things my Dietician swears us short gutters should have trouble with. 

  The thirst thing.  Ain't that a ***??? I couldn't conquer that one, despite continued trying.  No one, including my Docs, understood what it's like to be constantly thirsty.  And how good it feels to chug a quart of 33 degree cold ice water, knowing full well it'll be coming out my bag in oh......another minute or so.  I now know how I want to die............I want to drown in a big tub of ice water...chugging it as I go.  Seems there's some poetic justice in that one.  Sort of killing two birds with one stone....me and my thirst.  The good news is........and you won't believe this.........you will overcome that thirst.  Not all the time, but I'm at the point now where I've actually had a few days and nights that I wasn't compelled by my thirst to drink everything in sight.  And when I controlled myself my stool firmed up........not to what we'd consider normal, but beyond what I ever thought I could accomplish. So there's a light at the end of the tunnel in regards to constant thirst. 

  So bottom line........your "new normal" will change for the better as time goes on.  Oh, one thing I forgot to mention.  That heavy whipping cream, if taken by itself, does thicken up my output.  No really, if I drink half a pint after I eat my breakfast (usually a homemade sausage egg and cheese monster burrito I make) my output will be like thick toothpaste.  But only if I drink the cream instead of water, Diet Coke or ORS.  I haven't looked at the chemistry of cream to figure that one out..........but I kid you not.  

  Hey, I could go on and on and bore you to tears, but it's gotten dark outside, so I need to go feed the horses before they get too hungry and eat the goats........who've probably already eaten the geese......who ate my chickens.  Funny thing that Mother Nature.  We can chat more later, but better times they are a comin'.  Hang in there Brother.

regards,

bob 

Reply by Brianccan, on Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:27 am

I have found that the probiotic FLORASTOR has helped my output quite a bit.  It promotes favorable gut flora to help support intestinal health.  My surgeon recommended this and I noticed an improvment right away.  Talk to your doctor first but might be worth a shot.  Taking a lot of antibiotics over the years is hard on the good bacteria in your gut which can cause a  liquid output.  Replenishing that good bacteria has certainly helped me.  Good luck.

Reply by Tickpol , on Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:04 am
newyorktorque wrote:

Hey Dave how long have you had your ostomy?  My first 2 years I was sucking down liquid like theres no tomorrow.  Things are a little more under control now.  With an ileo I have liquid output all the time but things like bread can thicken my output as well as using omeprazole.

 


If had this one for 7 months and yes it seems like I'm constantly eating and drinking and even with a liter of lactated ringers every day I often still feel thirsty. 

Good to know there's light at the end of the tunnel, even though it appears to be a really long tunnel.

 

Dave

Reply by Tickpol , on Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 am
w30bob wrote:

Hi Dave,

  For whatever reason.......I don't ever balloon.  Gas is just not an issue for me, and I eat a lot of crap.  Seems the part of my small intestine that I have left doesn't absorb fat or cholesterol, so I eat everything normal folks shouldn't, and do it every day.  I just had my lippids checked and my LDL and HDL are spot-on in the middle of the range.  My blood pressure is always perfect, as is my heart rate.  This must be the silver lining in my otherwise rain-infested cloud.  The guys at work just shake their heads..........I eat McDonalds burgers everyday (including a large fry) for lunch (and buy enough to eat thru the evening), I drink heavy whipping cream by the quart and have half a dozen bowls of Raisin Bran (with extra raisins) soaked in Half N Half each nite......usually before I eat a whole DiGiorno Deep Dish Pan Pizza.  And I wash that down with a couple large glasses of iced whole milk (because cream and half N half get expensive when you drink it by the gallon).  And I never get any gas.  Or gain any weight.  No wait, I take that back.  I have been gaining a little weight.......finally.  Which is why I wanted to write this reply. 

  You mentioned a few things I need to comment on.  First, it's thought our bowels adapt for the first year.  That's crap. They continue to adapt for as long as needed. Mine are still adapting and it's 5 years since my operation this past September.  The trick to adaptation is not to "help" your body except when absolutely necessary.  They don't tell you this stuff, because they really don't fully understand it........and neither do I, but your body will adapt faster if it has to, but if you help it constantly then it won't.........because it doesn't have to.  That's why I didn'd drink any ORS for the first couple years.  I didn't want my body to think if it didn't adapt to absorb what I was drinking it would be fine because I'd cave and drink the ORS.  And now I can drink things my Dietician swears us short gutters should have trouble with. 

  The thirst thing.  Ain't that a ***??? I couldn't conquer that one, despite continued trying.  No one, including my Docs, understood what it's like to be constantly thirsty.  And how good it feels to chug a quart of 33 degree cold ice water, knowing full well it'll be coming out my bag in oh......another minute or so.  I now know how I want to die............I want to drown in a big tub of ice water...chugging it as I go.  Seems there's some poetic justice in that one.  Sort of killing two birds with one stone....me and my thirst.  The good news is........and you won't believe this.........you will overcome that thirst.  Not all the time, but I'm at the point now where I've actually had a few days and nights that I wasn't compelled by my thirst to drink everything in sight.  And when I controlled myself my stool firmed up........not to what we'd consider normal, but beyond what I ever thought I could accomplish. So there's a light at the end of the tunnel in regards to constant thirst. 

  So bottom line........your "new normal" will change for the better as time goes on.  Oh, one thing I forgot to mention.  That heavy whipping cream, if taken by itself, does thicken up my output.  No really, if I drink half a pint after I eat my breakfast (usually a homemade sausage egg and cheese monster burrito I make) my output will be like thick toothpaste.  But only if I drink the cream instead of water, Diet Coke or ORS.  I haven't looked at the chemistry of cream to figure that one out..........but I kid you not.  

  Hey, I could go on and on and bore you to tears, but it's gotten dark outside, so I need to go feed the horses before they get too hungry and eat the goats........who've probably already eaten the geese......who ate my chickens.  Funny thing that Mother Nature.  We can chat more later, but better times they are a comin'.  Hang in there Brother.

regards,

bob 

I've been soooooo tempted to drink a soda.  I really miss them.  Perhaps I should just blaze my own trail; trying to be a good boy isn't working so well and it isn't any fun either.....

As for gas, I just seem to swallow a lot of air; even when I'm not eating or drinking.  I'm trying to be more conscious of it but perhaps what I really need is a large Coke?  LOL

 

Dave

Reply by w30bob, on Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:22 pm

Dave,

  NO....NOT A COKE!  Diet Coke!!  One thing I can confirm is that a lot of sugar will trigger your body to dump water already inside you into the bowels to try to dilute that high concentration of sugar into the right ratio for the glucose-sodium balance to be right for absorption.  Diet Coke has no glucose, so it's the same as drinking water to your intestines.....it will pass right thru and not trigger any fluid dumping.....and associated dehydration.  This is one area I had a hard time believing after reading Carol's book, despite my Dietician confirming it was correct.  And because everything went thru me so fast I couldn't differentiate between what I was eating and drinking and what my body was dumping into the mix.  Now that food stays in me longer I can easily see what happens if I eat lots of sugar..........and I LOVE sugar.  I'll eat a box of donuts without thinking about it....or Nutter Butters, etc.  And now I can actually watch my body just start dumping fluid in amazing amounts shortly afterward.  I actually scare myself sometimes when I see how much liquid I lose and for how long.

 So........don't go full tilt on the regular Coke......A couple swigs won't hurt you, but don't go hog wild unless you want to lose a few pounds and have your bag powerwashed out from the inside.  The cool thing about our sense of taste is that it can be tailored.  When you first taste an ORS made to the WHO standard you'll almost puke.  Tastes like drinking sea water.  But if you mix your ORS with with little amounts of salt and sugar and then slowly add more and more salt and sugar your taste buds will accept the taste and regular Coke and other normal things you drink won't taste right.  It's how folks got used to the disgusting taste of TAB and other early diet sodas back in the day when they used Saccharin instead of NutraSweet.  I'm at the point now where a regular Coke tastes way to sugary to me, as does a regular Pepsi.  Yet when my now ex-girfriend would forget and grab my drink to take a swig she'd recoil and ask how could I drink that crap. And I'm finding (for me anyway) it's the salt that's more important in the ORS mix than the glucose (sugar).  I now just grab a 32oz cup at McDonalds every morning and put a bit of regular Coke in the bottom of the cup, then dump in 2 or 3 salt packets (yes, I get lots of funny looks) and then fill the rest of the cup with Diet Coke and ice.  Just mix it real well with a straw, as the salt doesn't always mix well, and I can drink that over the next 1/2 hour or so and it all gets absorbed.  Or at least most of it.  You'll learn the hydration tricks....Grasshopper.........as time goes on.  And you will be able to enjoy MOST of what you used to, just maybe in smaller doses.  And you'll know what to expect when you do. 

  As for sucking air......guess I don't.  I tend to always use a straw because I drink a lot while I drive....and with a lid on it keeps the drink colder longer.  I think I read somewhere that the idea that you can ingest a lot of air when you eat is just a myth.  It was discussed on here not too long ago.  And if you think about how the stomach works, meaning like a container that you pour stuff into the top and it exits from the bottom.....it's hard to see how the air would go to the bottom to get into your bowels in the first place.....as air is lighter than stomach contents and acid.  I tend to think all the gas people experience is the result of chemical reactions with the bacteria............but I could be talking out my ass.  Oh no wait........I can't talk out my ass........it's sewn shut. 

  Ok, all this soda talk has made me thirsty...........time to hit McD's!

 

later,

bob

Reply by Tickpol , on Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:34 pm

Bob,

 

I'm not talking sucking air with a straw.  I mean just plain swallowing air.  You ever have saliva buiild up and need to swallow?  Happens to me every minute or so since the surgery.  I know it's weird but I apparently swallow a lot of air when I sleep as well.

 

Go figure.  BTW Diet anything sucks.  Can't deal with the after taste.  Guess I'll stick with water (damn).

 

Dave

 

 

Reply by w30bob, on Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:43 am

Hi Dave,

   Ah......got it.  I was mentioning the straw because if you only drink with a straw you won't be getting as much air down your throat as you would drinking with your mouth open.  But I did Google how air gets absorbed in the bowel and it does say air not absorbed will cause bloating and gas.....so I WAS talking out my ass above.  You guys know what you're talking about......so my bad.  Maybe you should make an appointment with an Ear/Nose/Throat doc and see if they can fix that continued swallowing thing.  Seems weird it came on after the surgery.  Maybe they left some forceps in our throat by mistake........they always make tons of mistakes in the OR.  Ok.........just kidding.  Not about the mistakes they make, about the forceps.

 I hear ya about the diet sodas........I'm just used to them (or maybe addicted is a better word).  You can use regular Gatorade to make something different.  Just get a second quart bottle, dump half of the quart of gatorade in it, add half a teaspoon of salt to each, fill them both with cold water........or seltzer if you want something fizzy......and you have instant ORS.  And you have half a gallon to boot.  Just don't use the sugar free, which you wouldn't, for the reason you state.   When you try your new ORS it'll taste like a watered down Gatorade, but over time you'll find regular undiluted Gatorade tastes like pure sugar-water, ie, way too sweet.  I've tried all the flavors and find I like the Lemonade best with Glacier Ice (light blue) my second choice.  The Lemonade flavor is a bit hard to find (or used to be) and it's the same color as the original green lemon-lime Gatorade.  So if they're next to each other on the shelf you might miss the Lemonade thinking it's lemon-lime.

 On another note..........I hit the big Walmart yesterday to get some material for the Stealth Belt I'm making, based on the belts Warrior lent me, and I looked long and hard for Naan bread.  Couldn't even find PITA, so they're probably sold out.  So I'll try a few other stores this weekend when I'm out and about.  Now I'm on a mission.........Naan or bust!

later,

bob

Reply by Tickpol , on Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:09 pm

Bob,

My Safeway has it in the Artisan breads.  You get three of them for about $4.  It's better if you warm it up first.  Do you have an Indian restaurant near you?

 

Dave

Reply by Nicholoffs, on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:31 pm
Bill wrote:

Hello Dave.

My output has been changing regularly since my last operation. I have no idea why because I haven't changed my diet much at all. However, in my case, I suspect the new drugs regime may be to blame.

Best wishes

Bill


Hi, I've had an ileostomy for one and a half years oh, and my output is never the same on a day-to-day basis, sometimes it's Ronny sometimes it's thicker it all depends on what I eat. I know when I eat High carbohydrates it's thinner, when I eat salads and oatmeal and high-fiber it's thicker. But to me it's not a problem at least it's working

Reply by 2marilyn2, on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:51 pm

Hi, I find eating marshmallows throughout the day helps to thicken output.  My Consultant suggested that a year and a half ago when I got my ileostomy and it does help me!  I’m in the UK so I don’t know if marshmallows are the same thing in the US. 

Reply by w30bob, on Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:15 pm

2marilyn2,

  I'm happy to report we have marshmallows in the US just like you guys across the pond.  They come in many flavors and sizes!  I hesitate to try them because they're all sugar.  So my body would react negatively to them and start dumping fluid into my bowels.  Woes us short gutters.  Maybe I can try some sugar free marshmallows...........we have those too! 

regards,

bob

Reply by w30bob, on Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:26 pm

Ok, going to try two more places to find that darn Naan bread.  Wish me luck!

later,

bob

Reply by w30bob, on Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:49 pm

Woooo Hoooo!  Success!!  Found the Naan bread.  Silly me, I was looking for it in the bread section.........it was in the ridiculously overpriced Artisan Bread section.  A hole loaf of sandwich bread costs 67 cents.  2 slices of Naan bread.......$4.50!!!  But if it clogs me up it's cheaper than a barrier and a bag......so worth it.  I just made a hot ham and cheese sandwich with it, so it should be grinding my intestines to a halt as we speak, if it works.  I'll let you know in an hour or so, and we'll get this mystery solved.  But right now I need to work on my business model for baking a few slices of bread and selling it to folks for $5.  I think I can make a nice profit on this stuff. 

later,

bob

Reply by Tickpol , on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:52 pm

Well so far I haven't been able to reproduce my original success.  I'm beginning to feel like a optimistic Chicken Little expecting to find that silver bullet.

 

Such are the vagaries of SBS I suppose.

 

Dave

Reply by w30bob, on Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:29 pm

Hi Dave,

  Yeah, I finished those two slices of Naan, then tried another brand I found at Aldi's.........no luck in terms of output thickening. So far, nothing really changes the consistency of my output more than the amount of liquid I drink before, during and after eating.  I've been writing down what I eat and drink to try to make heads or tails out of what foods affect output.  No shocking revelations so far..........but the search continues.  

 

regards,

bob

Reply by Tickpol , on Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:27 pm

I do appreciate your thoughtful consideration to bounce ideas off of.  I just want to lose my dependance on IV fluids.

 

Dave

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