REBUILDING PARTS (Human)

Greetings fellow ostimates, recently I caught part of a medical program on the news, and these scientists had built an ear from a man's DNA, and of course, there would be no rejection. Also, and this is what really woke me up, they had also grown a bladder; it would have been about the size of a closed fist. Of course, this got me to thinking if they can do this, how far down the road will be a brand new colon? Now, I don't expect this to happen in my lifetime, but for the younger folks, it would be something to look forward to. If anybody has seen or sees this story and could add to this post, it would be greatly appreciated. Ed

Ed,

Brings to mind the subject of cloning... of course, cloning is not the same thing that you are
referring to. But, to regress a little bit; I know that the main job of the colon is to absorb most of the water, but aside from that, if the job of the colon is to move feces from one point to the other, why couldn't they just make a plastic colon? Also, I think that I read somewhere that a pig has organs that closely resemble humans. I wonder, in that case, have they ever tried to use a pig's colon in a human? Back to cloning, one could, providing they could afford it, the theory is that one could have their own clone, so that when they reach the age where they would need a new organ, one would be readily available. The only drawback to that theory would be, say, if the organ needed was a heart, the clone would naturally be sacrificed. And even though the donor would merely be a clone, they would still be a human being.

On the other hand, I know that they do grow human skin to be used on humans. It is mostly used on burn victims where a large area of skin was destroyed. They actually take a sample of the victim's skin and grow it in something like a petri dish. When it grows to the size needed, it is put in place on the victim's body and it attaches like normal skin. Seems like it could be done with the intestine as well.

I am sure someone in the forum knows a lot more about this than I do.

I agree with you though, someday they will be able to do what you describe. After all, they did make a mechanical heart.

Ed, it is fair to say that if the human mind can conceptualize a medical enhancement, it won't be long in realizing its fulfillment. The brave new world I anticipate for our descendants puts us past all these physical issues and into a sphere where collective consciousness flourishes. Let's hope we get over our minor spats and find some shared space allowing us to break out of the surly bonds of earth and into some higher level of unanimity. Check out Teilhard de Chardin's work. He became absolutely enthralled with the possibilities for humankind, which he saw as heading for an exciting convergence of systems, an "Omega point" where the coalescence of consciousness will lead us to a new state of peace and planetary unity.

Like Shakespeare said, there are more things in heaven and earth than our philosophy can contain. PB

Hi CD, yeah I remember the mechanical heart, but it also reminded me of the first heart transplant by a South African doctor, Dr. Barnard, I believe, and the line he used at a media scrum. The question put to him was that a doctor in British Columbia, I forget the name, said it couldn't be done. Dr. Barnard's reply, well I've heard of British Columbia!!!

Hey PB, there's no doubting what you say, but let me just throw this tidbit in: for a while, at least ten years, I was a Linotype operator, hot type, and some professors from the university had put out a review covering many topics. One particular professor always had an essay on Teilhard de Chardin's work, and whenever I saw this man coming, I would cringe. He may have been up on de Chardin's work, but this man was no writer; it was the most difficult thing to set. The words just didn't seem to flow, and the other operators just refused to go near this man's copy. Later on, I picked up a book of de Chardin's and found out the man could really write. Even though most of his work was over my head, it was a treat after the rubbish I used to have to set. I can still remember some of the other professors coming up to me and saying this man was just out to get me, he-he, so I wasn't the only one aware of his lousy essays. Just saying, Ed

Staying Hydrated with an Ostomy with LeeAnne Hayden | Hollister

PB,
You are an absolute "wordsmith." I so enjoy your postings, especially when you and Xerpes get on the same subject. Keep it up!
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Jack, Ed, please take anything I write at 2 AM with a large grain of salt.
My description of de Chardin's vision is found in multiple internet sources. If you want a great read, check out a book called "The Jesuit and the Skull" by Amir Aczel. de Chardin was a priest and paleontologist involved with the discovery of the Peking Man, and his writings went a long way in connecting science and faith. Unfortunately, church officials had to silence him because his views were not regarded as canonically kosher. He saw the man's evolution as continuous, but the focus of this evolution would be the human mind or spirit.   PB

I myself was wondering why not colon transplants? They seem to transplant every other part of the body. I was going to ask Dr. on my next visit; he will probably give me a thumbs down and say "WHAT".

But like you say, if they can clone parts, why not colons also? It would be great, wouldn't it, for everyone? Then again, all the ostomy supply companies would go out of business
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Dear Christiedad and other fine people,

Yes, the development of "organoids" has been around a long time now. Way back when, you might remember the development of a human ear on the back of a rat and, yes, the transplantation of organs including the heart, lungs, and now even limbs. They have recognized that pigs do present a nice source for 'xenotransplants' (cross-species) because their organs are very similar in size to humans, and knocking out the antigenic property of pig organs to make them accepted by humans is less problematic. There are problems, however, that go beyond rejection. One is the possibility of cross-species transfer of parasites. Hosts and their parasites evolve together over time, and the host has been able to withstand the presence of the parasite and survive. If the organ is transplanted to a human who was never exposed to the parasite of the pig, he/she would be very vulnerable and could even succumb. This was one of the fears of using pig and baboon hearts for transplant to humans early on. Obviously, we have been performing allotransplants (within the same species) of human organs for many years now. Of course, we always have to be aware of histocompatibility, i.e., rejection. Hence the timeless wait for the right donor. When it comes to transplanting sections of the GI tract such as the colon or parts of the small intestine, I think there are some issues that really have to be taken into account and may be the reason why it has been slow to develop. Here, we have to not only attach a tube, but we must deal with significant nerve reconnections and vascular reconnections. This isn't easy. Without these proper attachments, we would end up with a piece of non-functional tubing that could be more of a hindrance than help. I like the idea of therapeutic cloning, but we all know how society views using stem cells from a fetus. Not easy. Until society adapts and realizes how therapeutic cloning can save and improve the lives of those with maladies such as MS, Alzheimer's, and other disorders, I am afraid we will continue to march along the same endless path to nowhere.

X_

Xerxes,

I agree with what you say about the cloning issue and I can see the physical benefits for the one needing an organ transplant.  However, and I don't want to appear hypocritical, (and, I might add, I am not sure what I would do in the case of MY needing my clones heart, especially if the clone were created just for that reason.  To be my personal walking around spare parts catalog.)  However the clone, even though he would have been  created just for that purpose, would still be a human being, and have to be sacrificed for my benefit.  If, as we have all heard, one kidney or one lung, or other such partial organ could save a life without causing the donor to die, I am all for it.  But a vital organ? I just don't know.

There has to be, by the very nature of the situation, a moral issue. That of taking a life.  Although, according to the news, there are some who take other's lives on a daily basis with no remorse whatever.   Re: the snipers, etc.  Then, as a society, we turn around and do the same thing to the snipers that we condem them for.  Causes me to wonder what a visiting extra terrestral alien would think of our society.

CD,

You know, the best scenario for what you are saying is to have an identical twin whom you absolutely despise. LOL. Oh "The Boys from Brazil."

There's also another issue involved with the possible transplanting of a "new" colon. I have a J-pouch...AND an ileostomy. The original ileostomy was reversed when it was determined that the j-pouch had healed and there were no leaks. After the reversal, my life became hell. The little rectal cuff that was left behind to attach the j-pouch to became inflamed. It was colitis all over again, only this time, instead of feces, it was more stomach acid and digestive enzymes. Felt like i was being anally raped with a wire brush,.. about 25 to 30 times a day. I couldn't take enough percocet to dull the pain. I became hooked on the stuff.... and i started dropping weight. Lost a third of my body weight in a couple of months. But i digress. The reversal was reversed and now i have a permanent ileostomy. I'm healthy again and, mostly, back to my old self, but now i have this functioning piece of bowel still attached. It's really kind of disturbing at times because it still can have a lot of discharge. Happens a lot at night as well which interrupts my sleep. That is what prompted me to see my surgeon again and ask if, since the ileostomy is now permanent, can the j-pouch be removed and the sphincter closed. Apparently this is a VERY delicate operation. With the creation and the attaching of the j-pouch in the first operation, (and from my understanding this is pretty much universal and not just in my case), there is a lot of scar tissue in close proximity to a very large nerve bundle in the rectal/genital area. With a second operation in that area, (say, the attaching of a cloned colon), the surgeon would have to cut through all that scar tissue,.. perilously close to the nerve bundle. That nerve bundle governs sexual function. The risk of losing ALL sexual function increases dramatically from about 20 percent in the first operation to, (if i remember correctly), about 80 or 90 percent. Don't know about you, but i'd rather have the bag than be effectively turned into a eunuch so i can poop.
We're a ways away yet, but, science being what it is, i have no doubt we'll get there eventually.
         ...unless we all kill each other with fully automatic weapons first  
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( sorry,.. just had to throw that in there for the benefit of a couple of others involved in this comment thread  )

Waterboy,

You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, many physicians do not advise their patients of the possible ill effects of the reversal. Losing sexual function, i.e., becoming impotent, is certainly one of them. Some people do not have a large enough colon left to reattach effectively and end up running to the bathroom 25 times a day. I am sorry that you had to suffer, but thank God you are now back in shape. As for the future, I am afraid that your prediction might prove more fact than fiction.

X_

I feel that I am so lucky in that hearing about some of the problems you guys had, kinda makes me feel like a wimp, complaining as I did about my situation. I had the ostomy, one year later I had the reversal and have been healthy ever since. I read about some of the things that others have gone through and I am just so grateful for my condition. I can't even begin to comprehend what you describe. I have no idea what a j-pouch is. At the end of my one year with the bag, we had a ceremony in the backyard and I buried that sucker. I just wish that you guys had better luck. You make me feel grateful as hell, I know that.

Take care and keep the faith. I know it probably sounds frivolous for me to say that, but I DO mean it

Jack

I don't think it sounds frivolous at all. Thank you, Jack. And Xerxes, you're right too. Many physicians don't tell their patients enough about possible ill effects. As patients, we all need to keep one thing in mind: doctors are people just like us, just as fallible. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and not just assume that because the person we're talking to is a doctor, he or she is the definitive authority on the subject, and what you're being told is gospel. Find out as much information as possible. Ask questions, get a second opinion. Information is power, and the better informed you are, the more you're going to be able to help yourself.

Rick

Hey Jack, just wanted to let you know what a j-pouch is. It's basically a loop constructed out of the small bowel meant to replicate and replace the anus, rectum, and large bowel (colon) when they are diseased and need to be removed. When the anus, rectum, and colon are removed, a small cuff of rectal skin is left to attach the j-pouch to, as it cannot be attached directly to the sphincter. Hope this helps to give you a little better understanding.
P.S. I'm very sorry to hear about your wife's passing. My condolences.
Rick

One more thing Xerxes, society, for the most part I think, does realize the potential value of cloning. It's the religious right that needs to be convinced. The "W" Bush administration put a stop to stem cell research. Let's hope future administrations have the courage to stand up to religious zealots and reverse those decisions. "God" is not saving us; medical research and advancements are.

I agree with what you say, Waterboy, about getting self-informed.

But here is a footnote to my particular situation;

I was admitted to the er and was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. The guys in the e.r. injected into my abdomen, Lovenox, a blood thinner to disolve blood clots.  In  the process they pierced my colon 8 times, not giving the injection correctly. Then keeping me overnight for observation.  I began to swell.  Then they opened me up and found the punctures.  This mandated a removal of the colon.  However the damage had already been done.  No one ever said so but I believe the leakage caused paratanitus, (can't spell it!) Any way I stayed in the hospital 3 months while they tried to keeep me alive.  It was diagnosed än emergency colostomy
and that I could have a reversal in a years time.  I had a colonoscopy 3 months prior and was cleared to be good to go for 6 more years. At any rate since I was almost comotose for those 3 months, I could not ask the doctors anything let alone understand what they would tell me.  They finally sent me to a nursing home, So I would not die in their hospital.  My wonderful wife, Jane, a retired nurse, almost kidnapped me and brought me home where I convelesed,(?) in a rented hospital bed with round the clock nursing care.  With therapy, I learned to walk all over again and finally got well, but with my bag.  Then after a year, got my reversal and now I am healthy again. For which I am grateful.
My point being;   I, as well as most people, I am sure,  don't possess the knowledge or skill to understand, question the doctors diagnosis nor prognosis.  After all, if it occurs to you, to questionthe doctor's decision, just who do you ask, while in the hospital?  As all of us know, it is useless to ask the nurses anything. If they bring you a sleeping pill when they wake you up to take it and you ask "what is this?", they don't say it's a sleeping pill, they say, "the doctor ordered it".  
But I still agree with your synopsis, it just don't work.

Waterboy,

I agree with you entirely. The road will be long and tortuous and seemingly unending, at least at this point. (Sounds like a good topic for another thread).

X_

Waterboy,

Great credo. I agree fully. Unfortunately, too many people look at physicians as if they are the extreme authority, God's right-hand man (or woman).

X_