GRATITUDE

Hi Angelicamarie,
Thank you for saying that! I was thinking the same thing but it's hard to find the words. Your words come straight from kindness. You said it perfectly.
Andrea

Hello Andrea.
Thanks again for your post and the detailed account of how you are thinking and using the concepts.
The first thing I would say is that the concepts are in a book that was written at a time when I worked in the medical sphere of mental health.(2003) It therefore uses labels for people with emotional control difficulties that I do not entirely agree with. Also, the concepts are dynamic when they are given in the 'chalk and talk' mode in that they differ with each presentation to suit the listeners at the time. Reading a book is the equivalent of me 'telling' people what I have found out. I have asked the questions and I have found the answers. This approach does not have the same impact as being 'there' for someone and sharing in a dialogue in such a way as to draw out from them the things that they know about the subject area.
My second point is that I presented all these concepts in a two hour session because in my view, they are only common-sense background information that people need not study to remember because the most important techniques of 'Constructive Conversations' will throw up many opportunities to return to and recap on the concepts time and time again, with the added advantage that it will be within a context that they will have thought through for themselves. This means that it will be absorbed and remembered much more readily than simply 'telling' them.
Your brief discussion with your friend probably did more good than you realise in that it would have given her 'hope'. Which is like the positive energy of an emotion that can spur people on to find out more about controlling their emotional energy. It does not matter if you cannot remember everything, what matters is that you told her what you know - which is that whatever you are doing, even if you don't fully understand it all, seems to be working.
As for conversational bullies, In the same book, I have outlined another theory which is not listed as a 'concept' but covers my 'criteria for engagement'. It is a very simple formula which has three questions:
1) Do you have the problem? (defined as difficulties with emotional control)
2) Do you want to change? ( It's surprising how many people don't!)
3) Are you willing to work at changing ( Even more people don't want to put any effort into changing themselves - they prefer pills and other 'props'.)
YES answers to these questions would indicate: a) a recognition of a problem b) a desire for change and c)a chance of moving forward constructively.
YES -- and SOLAR could work.
NO as an answer to these questions indicate: a) Denial b)a desire to stay dysfunctional c)less likely that any positive change will occur.
NO --- and nothing is likely to work.
I share this theory because it is also relevant to any conversation with anyone about anything. If you come across a conversational bully, then applying this logical criteria will tell you whether it is a worthwhile exercise to bother engaging in the first place or whether it is better to use your energy in other, more productive ways. Bullies generally only speak in monologues and are unwilling to listen to anyone else's point of view so what is the point in trying to establish a dialogue with these people?
Logically, you have a now got a good, well reasoned excuse to walk away without making it personal or emotional. The 'criteria for engagement' is a benchmark as to whether you engage or not. I used to confront people with this criteria before ever entering into further conversation. If they are put off at this early stage by honesty and simplicity, it is possible and likely that they are still dysfunctional and not wanting to change at this time. In which case it becomes ore economical and efficient to defer any further work/conversation until they fit the criteria.
I hope this helps you to understand how you can walk away from conversational bullies without giving it a second thought. The y are not worth engaging with.(unless you like confrontation)
Another way of viewing this same sort of thing is to see them as 'playing games'. Eric Byrne (Games People Play) described game-playing as essentially 'dishonest' and postulated that the only way of combatting it was to 'unearth the game' and expose it for what it is.
Best wishes
Bill

Hello Angelicamarie.
I agree with Andrea in saying that you are so kind and that is a quality which I for one appreciate immensely.
You remain as always, in my thoughts.
Best wishes
Bill

Bill, will you delete the first message I sent you on the 6th? I was saying you won't hear from me much today because I'm preparing for a colonoscopy and an EGD. This is my first time since I got my stoma, so I really don't know how it's going to be. Keep me in your thoughts, Bill!! Angelicamarie

Bill, have you heard from tpntiff? I know she's ill, but I sent her a message just to see how she was doing. She hasn't responded. I hope her health is holding up!!! Angelicamarie

Hello Angelicamarie.
I have deleted the message as requested and NO! I have not heard from Tpntiff. I expect she will respond when she feels up to it.
Best wishes
Bill

Wow Bill, did I offend you? If so, I apologize. I only asked because I know she has sent you a comment. Sorry, I was just concerned about another human being!!!! Angelica Marie

Hello Angelicamarie.
It should be me that is apologising to you. Of course you did not offend me. Having re-read my reply I can see that it could have been less abrasive. My excuse is that I did not notice how it read at the time. I should have taken more time to compose a more suitable reply than the brief, brusque one that I hurried to get off before going to work.
I was not quite sure which poem Tiffanie was referring to as I had just posted about Rudyard Kipling's 'IF' but after further reflection I presume she was referring to 'GRATITUDE', although the two poems do have a bit in common.
It is not easy sitting here trying to type with no heating and fingers freezing at the ends. I am hoping that they might be finished by the end of the week, but it all looks painfully slow progress at the moment.
Best wishes
Bill

My friend, apology accepted. Moving forward, Angelica Marie.

That last part of the basics of constructive conversations, applied at this time, how are you this morning? Is the plumber finished yet? Do you have heat now? Hope all is well. I missed you yesterday, but assumed that the plumber hadn't finished. Hang in there, it will be finished. My home is under construction also, not the heat, but the flooring. Best wishes, my friend. Have the best day that you can!!! Angelicamarie

Hello Angelicamarie. Thanks for your post and your concern about the plumbers - It looks as if they will be here for the best part of the rest of this week. Fortunately, it has gone a few degrees warmer today so hopefully it will stay like this until they have finished. I'm pleased you found something in the last post that was applicable to yourself. Sooner of later, most of these concepts become relevant in one way or another. I am always finding new ways to make use of them.
I have no more numbered concepts to list for you but the theories surrounding 'Constructive Conversations' can be very useful in helping people to think logically so I will try tom plough on with an exposition of those.
Best wishes
Bill

Sorry if the above is a bit long-winded and the layout did not download as I would have liked but I'm sure you will have got the gist of it.
Explaining the questions in this elaborate way is more for those who like long explanations. For participants in the exercise of 'constructive Conversations. I devised a simple way of absorbing the information using a hand as and aid memoir. 'WHAT' was written on the thumb, which was described as 'having' the thumb on the button to start things off; 'WHO' was on the pointing finger. If you put the 'subject'(of discussion) between the thumb and the forefinger, you will have a grip on the subject. 'WHEN', 'WHERE' & 'HOW' was written on each of the other fingers and 'WHY' was written in the palm of the hand, to signify that if all the other questions are asked. then you will have a grip on 'WHY' without having to ask the question. In addition to the basic questions, WHink, WHem, WHelse and WHext were written on the sinews at the wrist, to signify that they work the fingers (other questions) from behind the scenes.
I also wrote a rhyming verse to capture the ideas and I will post this as soon as I can find the time to type it out.
Best wishes
Bill

Hi Bill! Ok ... now thankfully it makes sense to me. What was stopping me from making sense? I make mistakes when I talk to myself!! I suspected as much!! It's a relief to know. (I really had faith we would get here... I don't think I ever really doubted you and I find this very uplifting because I am the type of person that can absolutely not connect with other people until I have spent a lot of time with them. But something in your poem pulled me in.) I don't understand yet how to have a constructive conversation with myself. But I really need to keep studying and for God's sake try to figure out what you are saying. Time is ticking!
This reminds me of an intro to philosophy class I took at a community college when I first moved to Iowa. We were studying René Descartes and I happened to 'luck out' and reason that perhaps a flaw in his theory "I think therefore I am"... was to consider if in fact "thoughts" were what "was"... what primarily "existed". What defined "existence"? And the "I" was merely a function of thoughts? Who could say?
Anyway, that was the extent of my enlightenment. I didn't understand another single concept the rest of the semester. The professor still gave me a B for a final grade. I think I might have broken his heart a little bit because my mind appeared to hold potential for a brief moment and then (disappointedly) crapped out.
As the years passed, my body followed suit. Glimpses of brilliance peppered with humiliating episodes of "crapping out" from the woods of Wisconsin to the streets of New York, Paris, and Cologne. In
For now, I continue to try to copy my Marley, read your theories and concepts posted here, keep my chin up, and try to understand how to achieve balance.
Hope your dang heat is on, Bill!
Thank you for everything.
All the best to you and yours.
Andrea

Looking forward to the poem whenever you have the time. Thanks!

I think it's worth pointing out that in order to identify the heart of "the matter" at hand - whatever it may be - I will need to put pen to paper. Concentration alone within my own thoughts will not provide the clear diagram I need to organize a discovery.
The 'questions' remind me of past situations when in the midst of a pain flare, I would occasionally become so frustrated I would yell 'What is it?' Meaning, what was emotionally triggering the pain? Because once I was able to identify the culprit, I was relieved of pain.
Your method of constructive conversations is so much deeper and layered. It gives me great hope. I'm looking forward to practicing this for myself and will do so in the near future. There is a bit of fear that I won't make any discoveries, but really mostly glad anticipation because there's a very good chance that I will.

Hello Andrea.
I do believe you are right about putting pen to paper as once you get going on looking comprehensively at subjects, it can sometimes be hard to remember what it was you thought of just a few questions previously.
If you think of the list of questions as different ways of looking at the subject matter from different angles it becomes clear that if all the questions are not asked, then there will be an inadequate perspective gained. Once the questions - what, who, when, where and how are asked in that sequence there are some obvious dimensions or angles that are missing, which is why I invented some questions to address the gaps.
firstly, we want to know WHat people are thINKing - hence the question WHINK?
We also want to know WHat their EMotions are - so we ask the question WHEM?
our answers are only circumscribed by our imagination, there is always something ELSE so we ask WHat ELSE - WHELSE?
and when all these questions are asked we want to know what we are going to do with this information for the future. The question is therefore WHat nEXT = WHEXT?
I expect you will have noticed that all these questions derive from the primary question - which is WHAT.
When I am facilitating a 'Constructive Conversation' the subject matter is written after the words WHAT IS----.I then write a number (1) signifying that an answer is expected. Once one answer is given and written down, I immediately write (2) underneath, thus, expecting another answer. This goes on until the participant cannot think of anything else. The writing of the numbers is in fact the subliminal question WHELSE? (WHat ELSE?)implying that there is always something else. What we are looking for is to draw out from the person what the subject matter 'means' to them.
The same procedure is repeated for all the other questions until a complete 'Constructive Conversation' is achieved. If you like, I will copy an example of one that has been completed by emotionally unstable people. What I would like from you is a one-word subject matter that would have some significance so that you can follow the conversation as if you were taking part yourself.
First of all I will post the rhyming verse covering the five basic questions.
Best wishes
Bill
PS: We have finally got some heating in the house so my fingers have thawed out for typing.

Hello Bill,
I was very glad to read that the heating was back up and running in your house. I shudder to think of anyone subject to unrelenting cold. It's very frigid in Wisconsin tonight. Thank you very much for your kind offer to help me follow a constructive conversation on a one-word topic! I can tell you that this type of exercise will be incredibly valuable to me for concrete examples are a good learning mode for me. I must admit that after considerable thought, I still find it somewhat difficult to understand how to narrow down the subject. I find that broader topics come to mind and push in, and in effect, this inability to "see the tree for the forest" is perhaps one of my primary challenges. So here I will propose a subject matter of "disappointment". I'm not confident that this is a word that lends itself to building a constructive conversation, so I would ask for your kind redirection as necessary.
I do feel compelled to express my heartfelt gratitude to you for this blog. As life unfolds - day to day - I find myself returning to previous pearls of wisdom and perspective you have written down here. Just now I had reason to scroll back and search for something you said early on regarding siblings. I couldn't remember it exactly but remembered that I thought it was honest and insightful and sounded balanced. During this holiday season, I think it's especially relatable and bears thought.
This is what you said, "I understand how you feel about siblings who don't seem to do their duty, but having lost nearly all mine, I now look back and feel we just have to enjoy having them about no matter for better or worse".
Bill, I hope your days are spent with kind folks who treat you with all the attributes contained in the 10 Daily Aims.
All the best,
Andrea

Hello Andrea.
Yes! it is such a relief to be warm again. However, sitting in the freezing cold does make us appreciate what we have when it all works again.
'Disappointment' is an ideal subject for a 'constructive conversation' - mind you, I wold probably have said that no matter what subject you came up with, as the process lends itself to examining anything you like.
I scanned back on the many 'CCs' conducted with Emotionally Unstable People and found one on 'DISAPPOINTMENT' so I will post it. However, please bear in mind that these 'CCs' were undertaken in a group setting, so the contributory answers might seem to be beyond that which one person might think up for themselves. Don't worry if you don't understand some of the one-word answers, because they would have been concepts very specific to the person who contributed them.
You might like to bear in mind that I was in the group as a facilitator. Not saying anything but encouraging the conversation by my non-verbal contributions (according to my AIMS list. I was also writing down their contributions on a sheet of lining paper, so they could see the conversation 'building' from the one-word subject of 'disappointment' through all the different dimensional questions.
I hope that by reading through what others have come up with by way of answers, you will see that what starts out as an emotionally charged concept, can be analysed in terms of what it actually 'means' to and for the participants. By the time we reach the end of the session they have come to grips with the subject and begin to see where they can go next in that regard. I hope you will jot down your own answers to each question as you read through the 'CC' then perhaps we can discuss the whole thing further.
Best wishes
Bill

Hi Bill,
These answers are so very comforting to read - actually, to see all the responses helps to understand that the volume of the quandary is universal. I realize this was a group exercise, but I suspect that for an individual - a lot of emotional instability comes from the process one's brain goes through when dealing with a huge amount of considerations. Is the goal to find one answer or is it okay to be enveloped in the giant potential that each question provides? The second option seems to have a pitfall of wallowing for long periods of time. I find myself in that position throughout various activities - to be clear, the means do often justify the ends. But with unreliability - unfortunately. I'm very thankful for the things I have learned here so far because even when I'm overwhelmed by a large volume of options to consider - I have tools to see me through. Acting like Marley helps me slow down and think. And in that gift of time, I'm able to sequence my emotions and feelings in a more balanced way and obtain some control - the kind of control I seek. Not to dominate! But to be able to act the way a person should. The way I want to act.

Bill, I'm responding to disappointments, some of which I totally relate to, some pertain to me now but it's real. Good job!!! Bill, you're my inspiration. Angelicamarie

Hello Andrea.
I'm pleased that you were able to get something useful from the transcript of the 'constructive Conversation' on 'DISAPPOINTMENT' and it's good that you are sharing your questions about the process as this gives me the opportunity of explaining things that might be of more relevance to your thinking.
You are quite right when you say that emotional instability can come from the brain trying to process huge amounts of information(this is sometimes described as the brain 'racing'.) The main 'goal' is not to find one answer but to control the processes within the mind that cause it to 'race' with very little control on the process. Asking these questions and coming up with a host of different answers is a way of channelling all that 'racing' energy into a logical format.
If you notice, the question WHEM? , which is specifically asking WHat EMotions are felt, has been left until almost last in the sequence. This is because all the other questions can be answered instantaneously by 'instinct', yet the emotional 'charge' of emotional energy does not come out as anything but a logical answer to a logical question. By the time the participants have reached 'WHEM', they have practiced answering logically enough times to say logically what emotions they feel - without actually feeling them. If we asked about emotions at the beginning of the conversation, the chances would be that the whole conversation would be fully emotionally charged and probably end up with some sort of nervous breakdown. As the 'constructive Conversation' progresses, it can be clearly seen that the participants are getting more and more control over their 'racing' minds, to such an extent that after they list their emotions, they are well prepared to list what they should do with all this information NEXT.
This process doesn't necessarily slow the thinking process down, it puts it into a logical sequence, no matter how fast the responses are coming. at the end of each conversation the participants suggest their own solutions/answers to the problem that they stated at the beginning ( in this case it was 'Disappointment'.) This is truly a DIY method of learning to control otherwise wayward emotions in ways that lead the participants to find their own answers, rather than have them 'told' to them by someone else.
Looking at a problem / topic from all these different perspectives will give anyone the knowledge to make rational decisions for themselves about almost anything.
If you choose another topic, I will see if there has already been a CC on it and that can be used as another example. However, another approach would be for you to choose a topic to work through for yourself. Asking the questions in turn and then trying to think of as many answers as you can for what that topic 'means' to you. As with most things, the more you practice, the easier it tends to get.
Best wishes
Bill

Hello Angelicamarie.
It is really good to think that you are also getting something from the 'Constructive Conversation' on 'DISAPPOINTMENTS'. I was tempted to post one or two CC transcripts on 'LOSS' and related issues but I felt that it was perhaps a bit early for these concepts to be aired in such a logical format, as there needs to be enough space to feel the emotion and let it run its due course, before trying to control it. However, the same offer applies to you as to Andrea, in that if you have a concept that you wish to see how someone else has dealt with it in a 'constructive Conversation' format, then just let me know and I'll search through my archives to see if the subject has been dealt with before.
Best wishes
Bill

Hello Summerfan.
Thank you for your 'like' with regard to this blog. However, the like icon doesn't indicate whether you simply read the rhyme, or whether you persevered with the subsequent (lengthy) discussion.
I hope that you did both, but if not, I'm pleased that you enjoyed the verse.
Best wishes
Bill

Perfect. Thank you. Perspective is everything.

You are a special person - No need to feel either self-centered or at odds with feeling gratitude for [as I would put it] being - helping, sharing, and doing what feels appropriate .... You are a good balanced contributor - [and this is not said in any judgmental manner either - for we all do what we can to give and receive at different times.

Thank you on many levels for your input to this site, Bill.

Summer wishes to all.

Jayne

Lemontwist,

You are a lady after my own heart ... and yes, balance divinity and definitely morphic resonance is touchable and informs our deeper senses.

You know, I too am in the process of learning to love myself .... for in the final analysis, whilst I cannot say I am in any way devout - I am happy to be and once this place is reached one can begin to go through doors that were hitherto closed, or at best only ajar at certain times.

"Cheers"

Best wishes

Waves from the hills of Radnorshire Mid Wales, UK

Jayne

GRATITUDE TO ‘GRATITUDE’.

Today, I received an ‘alert’,
which wasn’t long and was quite curt,
to say that someone ‘liked’ my rhyme
even after all this time. 

The rhyme that I’m referring to
is ‘Gratitude’ from me to you
and while it captured what I meant 
it’s not the best rhyme that I’ve sent.

So, I must try to reason why
the ratings for this rhyme’s so high,
and while I’m grateful to you lot
it’s not the only rhyme I’ve got.

I took a quick look at the stats’
and cannot see that my formats
would warrant such a great reaction,
which brought me much satisfaction.

Just as a recap, I will list
the stats, so that you get the gist
of what I am referring to
within my gratitude to you.

This post is one that took us ages
and ran to four hundred and three pages
with 23,643 views
and 5116 posts with news.

For me, it was a real surprise 
to see 235 replies,
and one of these has made me think
I never wrote a rhyme on ‘DINK’

So I have tried to rectify
and write a rhyme to clarify
what this ‘DINK’ word means to me
in terms of future poetry.
  

GRATITUDE TO ‘GRATITUDE’ (continued)

Apart from ‘DINK’, I wish to say
how grateful, I have been today
to see how much this rhyme’s been seen
and how acceptable it’s been.

The rhyme was just a minor part
that seemed to be a useful start
of discussions, long and short
with our ostomate cohorts.

It was a privilege for me
to write, alongside poetry
on lots of different subjects where
the emphasis was on our care.

I loved the literary discourse,
which never would have been, of course
without the input from you all
for without you, this post would stall.

The range of subjects we discussed
gave this thread a robust thrust,
which kept it live for longer than
some other posts I’ve written can.

It’s satisfying for me to
express my gratitude to you 
and my appreciation for
all you’ve said now and before.

But I am also grateful to
‘Gratitude’ rhyme that’s still on view
so there for everyone to see
and tick the ‘like’ icon, maybe.  

Although I ramble on a bit
I hope you don’t get bored with it,
but I will stop now and retire
to join my wife beside the fire.

                                                B.Withers 2023

DINK.

‘KIND’, was what I had in mind
as ‘dink’ reversed is what we find.
‘DINK’, I think, is apposite
to describe the opposite.

I know that ‘unkind’ is the same
but it’s not quite a pithy name
that might be levelled at someone
who many bully deeds have done.

To try to label bullies fully
there is no point in being wooly,
we need to come right to the point
and ‘Dink’, I think, won’t disappoint.

The first time that I used this word,
long before it had been heard
was whilst discussing ‘gratitude’,
in rhyme about my attitude.

I thought kind people needed to
be contrasted with others who
were polar opposites of ‘kind’
so ‘DINK’ was what I had in mind.

To call someone a ’Dink’ seems fair
if they’ve shown that they do not care
and/or bully others who
don’t do what they tell them to.

That ‘Tricky Dicky’ was a ‘Dink’
for bringing his wife to the brink
 with covert bullying, where he
pushed her towards insanity.

But in her case, she was too strong,
so she refused to string along
with his nasty little ploy
to gaslight her and then annoy.

So, I think ‘Tricky Dick’ has won
the title ‘DINK’ for what he’s done.

                                                B.Withers 2023 

With neither metre, line,  nor 'classic' thought .... maybe,  I guess,  I ought

to try,  to express - a bit of  'fun' - but not make 'cry' with bitter pun.

 

A Poets work is never done - a Carer goes the pace  -  and 'more': 

For if we stay,  and face - not run -  then maybe we'll "find"  no 'over-looked-for

 

FUN ?

 

On the basis 'DINK' is coined  to connote a reverse attitude to  'Kind',   I wonder, Bill,  what 'your take might be,  upon 'L' and 'O' and 'V' and 'E'  ....... rearrangement?   ...... Might,  do you think,  we be allowed to repeat ....  letters,  - say the Vee and the Eee  ....  for if we were,  to  BE inclined,  then we might  EVoLvE - outside our mind, and let our FEELINGS further breathe, and just, maybe,  become the 'different,  Us ....

The "Little Me" ....

"FREE'"

to play, to BE ,

and then just "SEE"

 

...  For, by reflecting more, beyond the rhyme, find empthy - approaching thine?

 

...................  As ever, Thanks Bill.

 

 

In Gratitude,   I wish you All,  a fun and relaxing evening .......   :-))

BW

Jayne

Hello Jayne.

Thanks for reading this rhyme and thanks for the concept of love and evol ve.

Plus, I do appreciate your rhyme(s) as well.

Best wishes

Bill